D2jsp is a Diablo 2 real-money auction house that translates US currency into forum gold (FG). This became the de-facto forum for D2 since about 2002. They run about 260 FG for about 10 bucks. You can get almost any high end item (not perfect) for about 1-2 FG, and ultra-high end runewords (not perfect) for about 6-10 FG. This means your 10-spot would basically outfit a character and his merc pretty easy today.
When the ladder resets, which is the Blizz way of erasing the economy, the price of these items goes up about 100 fold. Accordingly, to outfit a character with a high end runeword takes about 1000 fg, and you probably will have to go in for about 80 US to get maxed.
In WoW, and other games with more stable economies, you auction items for game gold almost exclusively. The game typically (not always) charges a fee, or gold 'sink' for doing this. Accordingly, you can set your items off to auction, and get whatever that item is worth in fairly simplistic ways (launch and hope - a 'la e-bay).
In WoW's case, there is also a real-money system, though it is not sanctioned, and can possibly get people into trouble. These systems use power-levelers who generally rush a character through all of the major quests, allowing them to pick up the critical items that drop. This power-leveling system costs about 85 US to get a guy to the top tier of players.
The deal with this is that each of the systems is already linked to a real money auction house, and Blizz is unable to touch it, except through suspensions and banning. A crude tool to say the least. Their movement into this area is inevitable and probably favorable to game play, as it is a VERY mechanical process right now.
The reason why these forums appear to work is because of the following:
1. The currency they use is hugely stable. FG does not change dramatically from one season to the next. People actually have to buy into it to make more FG, so fluctuation is minimal.
2. The system is extremely easy. The players have a lingo they use for critical items, and they can perform searches for each item. Simplicity is good.
3. There are really no down-sides. I think WoW may have banned people for doing it, very rarily, but since JSP has been around for about 10 years, I personally think there is a dubious balance with the system, and Blizzard tolerates them now for sure.
Accordingly, I think we should allow them to exist, but integrate them fully. A single currency (probably game gold) should be THE currency, and players should be able to exchange money for that currency. It would also make sense that Blizzard does NOT infuse tons of gold into the game through JSP-style increases, but keep it balanced through buying it from other players, not creating it from scratch. Both diluting the value of an item through inflation and having 'ladder-style' resets did not lead to stability. The game will ultimately stabilize itself, depending on the relative value of items, and Blizzard's drop rate and sink rate.
Accordingly, the trends appear to favor simplified and comprehensive AH systems, while allowing players to buy and sell their items for money. That said, it would probably be good for only one currency to be tradable for cash, as it would impact all of the other systems. Otherwise, let the players figure it out.|||Hopefully, in an attempt to full derail another thread for this one (with more clear English), I am going to put up Rickymm's post:
Q u o t e:
stating near idiotic statements like, "[if they] actually decided to give gold value and have balanced it around gold sinks" makes you look like a 5 year old idiot.
That statement is clearly the most idiotic thing someone could say.
How about you explain how gold sinks will stop gold inflation? Rather than just look like a tool by stating you believe in blizzard. Go ahead...how will gold sinks affect ANYTHING.
Let me point out. If you make gold sinks too costly, then players will return to town and their characters would be frozen. LOCKED. with no opportunity to continue with the game. Have you not thought of that? are you that stupid? Seriously?
Also, try explaining to me the difference between gold in D2 and gold in D3, without some benign comment like, "it will have value derp" ... what value? Gold in D2 had value..we just went over that. The problem is, it will not have enough value. Once player power reaches a specific spot, repair bills will drop. Once players find a safe farming location, death penalties will stop. The rest of the gold sinks are 100% optional.
Seriously...the intelligence in this forum is so freaking low, that it makes me want to shoot myself.
So let me start with how gold sinks will stop inflation. First, the game can be balanced to any level. Accordingly, it could take a considerable amount of gold to reset skills, repair equipment, enter duels, buy equipment, enter guilds, create guilds, and any other number of services. So, if you have a fully functioning clan that focuses on PVP, that could take a bunch of game gold to keep running. It could also be a hassle, but it already is, so whatever.
And no, characters won't be locked, they just won't be able to use that +9 skill Chaos claw they are so fond of. And for any of you guys that had a 'grief' berserker axe in D2, or a skill-based item, fixing that guy often ate up all your cash already. It took focus to make the money you needed to adventure. Accordingly, you just have to make other choices, which may now be part of the game. Maybe they don't want someone to have every item on their inventory at the highest possible level. And if they do, then that person has to be subsidized. It could work.
And the value of FG is arbitrary. And is readily exchangeable for roughly the amount of 'time' it takes for a player to make it. Accordingly, game gold will have value, its just will it be 10 gold per 10 US or 10000000000 gold per 10 US? Either way, it can absolutely function as the standard, it's just a matter of integration.|||So to translate, your saying you want there to be just a gold auction house, but you want users to be able to buy the gold from other players for real money?
So I can buy 1,000,000 gold from you for $10.00, then turn around and spend that 1,000,000 gold on some SOJ's, and a few items.
So why is that better than just buying a couple SOJ's and a few items out right, instead of having to buy gold first?
Its a neat idea, I guess I just don't see the point. Is it to just have one Auction house instead of two? Does it stabilize the economy? Why is this better than just selling items on the RMAH?|||
Q u o t e:
So to translate, your saying you want there to be just a gold auction house, but you want users to be able to buy the gold from other players for real money?
So I can buy 1,000,000 gold from you for $10.00, then turn around and spend that 1,000,000 gold on some SOJ's, and a few items.
So why is that better than just buying a couple SOJ's and a few items out right, instead of having to buy gold first?
Its a neat idea, I guess I just don't see the point. Is it to just have one Auction house instead of two? Does it stabilize the economy? Why is this better than just selling items on the RMAH?
Interesting point. I guess the answer is that you need to trade money for the base currency. FG worked that way, as do other trading forums. Whatever the base currency is should be a standard, and everyone needs to think in terms of it. But I guess you could do that as well, though it would be more complex. Just seems best to have all things conform to that value.
Otherwise, it is also good that money is not being created through a purchase. Inflation shouldn't have spikes and fits. The goods will migrate more natrually if you have it that way, or so I understand.|||I like the idea, but there is one problem. You will have thousands of suppliers, all trying to sell the same item: gold.
So you will end up with 2 auction houses: GAH, where you buy gold for real money, and IAH, where you buy items for gold.
The reason the D2 FG system worked is because they weren't buying 'gold' they were buying 'forum gold'. you can't get forum gold from in game, so there was ONE supplier, and they decided the price of their product.
With thousands of gold suppliers, the price for purchasing gold will drop significantly, and items will eventually start selling for millions of gold.
I guess after thinking it through, I like the current system better.|||You're forgetting that blizz makes wayyyyyy less money off fees if the only RMT is currency exchange. Though this is slightly better than a full on RMAH it's not going to happen.|||This would require Blizzard to keep the economy properly balanced at all times so gold never loses value and only gains value very slowly. No multi-player game in the history of mankind has done this successfully without breaking the economy entirely eventually. I wouldn't want to base a real-money trading system around the idea that Blizzard has suddenly figured out how to do what nobody else can do.
Also, please note that the RMAH will allow you to purchase gold for $$. The difference is that there is no expectations that gold value will remain even vaguely consistent. It may increase, it may decrease, but because it is a 100% open market the risk of purchasing and holding gold is entirely on the players head, not on the developers.|||
Q u o t e:
This would require Blizzard to keep the economy properly balanced at all times so gold never loses value and only gains value very slowly. No multi-player game in the history of mankind has done this successfully without breaking the economy entirely eventually. I wouldn't want to base a real-money trading system around the idea that Blizzard has suddenly figured out how to do what nobody else can do.
Also, please note that the RMAH will allow you to purchase gold for $$. The difference is that there is no expectations that gold value will remain even vaguely consistent. It may increase, it may decrease, but because it is a 100% open market the risk of purchasing and holding gold is entirely on the players head, not on the developers.
Guys, that isn't how money is bought, and these concerns are not legit.
First, the way in which you buy gold is through a single transaction 'pay-pal' type place where you can buy someone's gold through the Blizzard AH. That is where the RM in RMAH comes from. You credit via PayPal someone else's account, and get the gold they made.
From there, you can spend it however you like. The benefit of it is that your gold is transferable into cash at the current going rate. So if there is inflation, you will get more gold - however much as can be tolerated. So no, they don't have to keep it constant, though the more constant, the better.
And functionally it will require there to be more than one auction house, but there will have to be anyway. Cash has to make its way into the game somehow, and the way I would suggest is to do it via game gold. So kinda, but that isn't how you trade for items.
Regardless though, it makes sense. You can put your gold up for sale in a RMAH, and trade in game gold without restriction. Should allow rushes for game gold too, if the player is willing to take the chance. Why only sell out half-way? I say RMAH or no, and no middle ground.
Edit:
And in regard to Blizzard keeping things 'balanced,' and there potentially being 'millions' of gold sellers, that is fine. If they want to sell their 5 gold for .0000001 cents, they are welcome to. That said, people are doing this for convenience, so if they have to make 500 transactions to get enough gold for a weak axe of sorriness, I imagine they will buy the 1000000 gold in one transaction from a guy who asks more.|||Great Post,
All I'm going to add is that even though there are two auction houses there is effectively only 1 market. That is correct, gold currency and real money currency can exist side by side but as long as there is an exchange rate and a market to buy one currency with the other only one market really exists.
Blizzard told us we can buy gold in the RMAH, this means:
If an SOJ costs $10 in the RMAH, and gold is selling for $1 per 1,000 gold and SOJs are selling in the gold AH for 1,000:
And you have decided you are going to buy an SOJ and spend real money to do it.
Are you going to spend $10 and buy an SOJ on the RMAH, or are you going to spend $1 buy 1,000 gold and then with a few more clicks buy that SOJ for what might as well be $1?
Most semi-rational people will buy for $1.
What happens next? All the SOJS on the gold AH start selling out.
This means either the RMAH guys will have to lower the prices of their sojs as long as the supply of SOJs to the gold AH holds out.
If the supply of SOJs to the Gold AH starts to dwindle then the more likely outcome is that the gold AH SOJs price will increase.
At some point the two auction house prices will meet fairly close in the middle.
Lets say you want nothing to do with the RMAH. You only deal in gold.
There are no SOJs on the gold AH.
There are 10 SOJs on the RMAH.
The cheapest SOJ on the RMAH is $10.
You know that gold sells on the RMAH for about $1 = 1,000 gold.
How much are you going to list your SOJ for on the Gold AH?
Something between 900 to 999 gold maybe? It wouldn't make any sense to list your SOJ any cheaper (provided those RMAH SOJs are actually selling at those prices) since any RMAH buyer could effectively buy your gold listed soj cheaper than a RMAH SOJ even just using real currency.
Prices will approach the same price points. It won't matter which AH you use. This is a very basic principle of economics.
The lower the barriers/costs to converting the currencies the more the different market prices will converge at the same price points.
There are things that could and will create market price differences but they will not be large differences. The biggest factor will be the amount of the flat fee blizzard charges for the currency exchange (I.E. the RMAH listing cost).
If the market has large price diverge people like me will just stand in town and profit off of those differences until the rest of you figure it out and the markets converge again :)|||Leaving out the whole d2jsp backstory, your post can be summed up with the following question. Why use an auction house to sell items rather than use a currency exchange?
It's a valid question, really. People who read these type of threads have already heard me state this, but ultimately I feel the rmah system will eventually turn into a currency exchange system on its own. Even though there is definately a large population of people who participate in real money trades, there are MORE people who will just be using the gold auction house. This stands to reason that if you are a seller you will likely get a higher price by selling your item in the gold auction house and then selling the gold on the rmah.
So again, why the rmah? Why not a currency exchange? Was it perhaps a Blizzard oversight? Or can you think of a specific reason why Blizzard would prefer the rmah?|||
Q u o t e:
Guys, that isn't how money is bought, and these concerns are not legit.
First, the way in which you buy gold is through a single transaction 'pay-pal' type place where you can buy someone's gold through the Blizzard AH. That is where the RM in RMAH comes from. You credit via PayPal someone else's account, and get the gold they made.
From there, you can spend it however you like. The benefit of it is that your gold is transferable into cash at the current going rate. So if there is inflation, you will get more gold - however much as can be tolerated. So no, they don't have to keep it constant, though the more constant, the better.
Do you work for Paypal or something, because this plan would be HUGE for them?
Let me try this another way.
Lets assume that gold is consistently inflationary, or even just volatile, in D3. Lets also assume it is also selling at a rate of 10,000 gold for $1. If this is the case and they implement your system then the typical player who wants to buy an item for 100,000 gold will purchase $10 of gold, or 100,000 gold, and then purchase the 100,000 gold item he wants. He won't purchase $12, or 120,000 gold because tomorrow that extra 20,000 will only be worth $1.99 as inflation kicks in and will continue to lose value from there. In addition, the guy who sells the item will immediately convert the 100,000 back to $$ because otherwise he will lose $0.05 tomorrow.
So how exactly is this different from the RMAH other than all the extra money lost to additional fees?|||Arentol, I think you may want to take a look at how real money auction houses are run today. You aren't generally worried about the extra $2. I guess you might worry about huge over-payments, but a dollar or two will be lost in the mix.|||
Q u o t e:
Arentol, I think you may want to take a look at how real money auction houses are run today. You aren't generally worried about the extra $2. I guess you might worry about huge over-payments, but a dollar or two will be lost in the mix.
The overpayment part was to demonstrate the principle, it was not the issue I was explaining.
Lets try this again...
In a game like D3 there must always be more gold entering the game than leaving or the game runs out of gold. Once you have established that gold is always entering the system faster than it leaves then a simple fact becomes a given.... On average the amount of gold entering the economy per player per period of time X will always be Y. So for instance if for every 1,000 players playing the first year 1,000,000 total gold enters the economy then in the second year another million gold will enter per 1,000 players, and so on every single year.
What this really means is that if you assume no changes in the games population then there will be twice as much gold at the end of the second year as the first, 50% more at the end of the third year as at the end of the second, etc. So during the second year gold will devalue by 50%, the third 33%, then 25% the 4th, 20% the 5th.... ....10% the 10th, etc.
That percentage each year, minus the inflation rate of whatever currency you use in the real world, is how much Real Life money you will be losing per year on whatever gold you hold onto for that year. So if you have 100,000 gold at the end of year 1 and you keep it until the end of year 2 then that gold will be worth about half as much as if you had converted the gold to Real Life money. This is item devaluation independent. In other words, this doesn't mean your 100,000 gold will buy you half as much in the game as it would have a year before. Items will devalue as well, hopefully faster than gold, so it will still buy you more. What this means is that if at the end of year one if 100,000 gold OR $10 would purchase 1 copy of item X then if at the end of year two 100,000 gold would buy 2 copies of item X $10 should buy 4 copies of item X.
This means that keeping your money in in-game gold is going to be a bad idea. It will be devaluing all the time except during temporary variations caused by sudden population changes like those from a new expansion release. So in a system where the only way to buy in-game items with RL money is to purchase gold and then buy the items with that gold nobody with half a brain is going to buy gold unless they need all of it right away, and everybody with half a brain is going to sell gold once they have enough on hand to make it worthwhile, then buy it back later when they need it right away.
So basically the smart people will be storing their gold in the real world and letting the people not smart enough to know better suffer all the losses by keeping gold on hand. This will be the same in the RMAH. The smart people (who want to use the auction hall system for in-game trading, not just to make $$$) will sell gold and items in the RMAH when it is worthwhile to do so (enough $$ value to make the loss from fees worthwhile), and store the money in their B-net account where it won't lose value nearly as fast as in-game gold will. Then they will purchase gold or items, whichever they need, when they need it, using their b-net balance.
So what I am saying in regard to your idea is that it just makes what will already be happening more complex by requiring more steps, and will cost more in fees to third party vendors, and do all this without adding anything at all as an improvement over the mixed GAH and RMAH system. Stupid people will store their money as gold in either system and lose value. Smart people will store their money as RL cash in either system and not lose nearly as much value, in-game and real world.
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